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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
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Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 17:19 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Hello everybody. What I'm doing now isn't official, or 'DVA Approved' or anything, but before you tell me that it isn't my place to be trying this out, remember that I'm just doing an *experiment* to try and help people.
Well, recently I've discovered that our Fleet Airbus package (the AFVA one, rather) suffers from a 'ruder lockup' in flight. This effect is unrealistic and undesired, so I've done an extensive amount of research to try and figure out a solution.
Now my computer had to be turned into work, so I've been unable to carry out the experiments myself (I'm in the process of having a computer built for me), but with the help of the Airsimmer team (those guys are the greatest!), I've been able to make great strides in finding the source of the problem.
First let's look at the problem. The problem is with the rudder. Upon takeoff and raising of the landing gear, manual control to the rudder is disabled. I've found that this effect is unrealistic. The only thing it may closely model is the rudder disconnect function. By pressing the rudder-disconnect on an Airbus steering tiller, manual control of the rudder is shut off. However inputs into the pedals will still register on the 'Control Surfaces' page of the Secondary ECAM. This is exactly what happens with our Buses, however the real 'Rudder Disconnect' is used ON THE GROUND, NOT in THE AIR.
So I present to you the cause of the problem: The iFDG model used in our fleet Airbus package, as well as the A330 models (whoever made them), are just models. They do not contain 'FBW' built in, or any of those features. The 'FBW' dynamics, aircraft limitations, and all of that are built into the panel that is used. This panel (at least for FSX) is the default A321 panel. So all of the FBW effects, *INCLUDING THE RUDDER PROBLEM* come with it.
So the panel has been identified as the cause of the problem. This means that the problem is not on our side. It's Microsoft's problem that this effect is unrealistic. And because it's not on our side, it means that it wont take complex programming for us to fix it.
I present to you the solution: Make a different panel available with the package. If we could find a different panel that has semi-realistic FBW features (like the default 321), but does not suffer from this unrealistic Rudder Disconnect, we'd simply have to make the switch, and it'd be set.
So here's where you come in. But before that, I'd just like to again state the following:
I'm sure that by proposing we switch out the panel, some of you might say "Just who does this Alex Kolb guy think he is??!? He acts like he's a senior staff member, and can just waltz around and criticize our fleet installers! I mean they are FREE! If he wants realism, why doesn't he just order Wilco!?!?!".
Well, I'll answer that question as simple as I can, just in case anybody's thinking that.
First off, I am not trying to 'force' my idea upon senior staff. I'm simply suggesting a fix to a problem which I find annoying. And secondly, I do fly with the Wilco Airbuses. The reason I suggest this simple fix is because not everybody does. I always see it that if there is a 'next level' in reach, to go for it. If there weren't any other freeware Airbus panels out there, I wouldn't suggest we look at other ones. I'm just trying to look out for my fellow pilot, who might like Buses, but might not necessarily want to buy one yet.
So now that I hope that we're all on the same page, I have a little request.
Since I'm unable to fly right now, could you guys continue out my research? What I started to do before my company demanded their computer back was to find every A320 (or A330, A318,19,21) panels that are compatible with both FSX and FS9, to put them in the place of the A321 FSX panel, and to see the results.
I used the following checklist:
1. Overspeed Protection (if you dive the aircraft down and it overspeeds, it will automatically level out)
2. Autotrim (Aircraft will hold it's pitch when controller is released)
3. Autobank (Aircraft will hold it's bank when controller is released, see 4 and 5)
5. Bank protection (Aircraft will not bank more than 67 or so degrees)
6. Bank return (If the controller is released between 33 and 67 degrees, the aircraft will automatically roll back to 32 degrees)
7. Climb protection (aircraft will not pitch up more than 30 degrees)
8. Descent protection (aircraft will not pitch down more than 18 degrees)
9. Stall protection (aircraft will reduce pitch if a stall is imminent)
10. Elevator trim (you shouldn't be able to manually control it with out it reverting immediately back to normal)
11. Rudder problem (it doesn't have it)
They are listed in no particular order, but I always rule out ones that have the rudder problems. Other than that, it's which panel has the most ones on my list modeled.
So if anybody is bored and would like to help me, just find an Airbus panel, put it in any Airbus aircraft (again, preferably iFDG), and do the checklist. Once I find the 'best' panel, I'm going to go to Senior Staff with it. If they're not interested, the worst outcome for you will be that you helped me (and yourself).
Happy testing!
-Alexander Kolb
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 17:26 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Thank you to whoever moved this to it's appropriate location 
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 21:53 ET by Alexander Kolb
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For anybody looking to help but don't know what panel to test, try this one: 330dlx.zip
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5225
Captain, CRJ-200
Joined on November 20 2007
"Nothing said I had to crash"
Florence, CO USA
99 legs, 199.9 hours
16 legs,
43.6 hours online
7 legs,
12.1 hours ACARS
3 legs,
7.3 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 22:08 ET by Danny Wood
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I can do it tommaro.
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 22:54 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Thanks Danny. I'd continue research myself, but like I said, I'm unable to fly for a while. And this research isn't just some 'thing' I do because I'm bored, it's a strive to allow high-quality and accurate freeware for our VA members.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5225
Captain, CRJ-200
Joined on November 20 2007
"Nothing said I had to crash"
Florence, CO USA
99 legs, 199.9 hours
16 legs,
43.6 hours online
7 legs,
12.1 hours ACARS
3 legs,
7.3 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 23:26 ET by Danny Wood
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Np i am glad to do it really.
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AFV003
Senior Captain, B737-800
Joined on May 03 2002
GVA 10 Year Anniversary
Century Club
"Oh yeah, NOTAM #19 is a must!"
Indianapolis, IN
144 legs, 376.9 hours
59 legs,
129.5 hours online
121 legs,
328.9 hours ACARS
8 legs,
27.8 hours event
276 legs, 632.7 hours total
27 legs dispatched, 38.6
hours
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Posted onPost created on
March 26 2009 23:45 ET by Caitlyn Champlin
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Mr. Kolb,
I'm glad that you're looking out for the A320 flyers! The rudder problem is one of several unforunate limitations we've had to learn to adapt to. One of the biggest challenges we faced when putting our A318/319/320/321 package together was a shortage of models for comparison (at the time.)
I'd also point out that the 30 degree up pitch limit is not 100% accurate for what you're trying to test. The aircraft will limit it's pitch angle dependent upon weight, pressure altitude, etc. to determine the maximum safe pitch angle and is calculated by the Flight Augmentation Computer (FAC). I would be lead to believe that the panel designers attempted to simulate the FAC in some way because it's also resonsible for several other items:
- Rudder commands (yaw damping, rudder trim and limiting, turn coordination in automatic flight, and automatic engine failure compensation)
- Flight envelope and speed computations
The system is designed so that the FAC receives data directly from the landing gear, flaps/slats, and ADIRS. It performs the necessary calculations and communicates back and forth constantly with the #1 FMGC, which cross-talks with FMGC2 for redundancy, and is then relayed to the pilot via the MCDU.
This is a lot of real-world A320 stuff which probably has little to do with the fleet installer, but it's important to bring up if the problem lies in the fact that a developer had in fact tried to incorporate some of the actual FAC functions. All of the bells and whistles we'd love to be able to manage in MSFS is, rather unfortunately, limited by what can be modeled in the simulation platform. Either way your flight tests and method of approach are commendable as far as I'm concerned and I hope you can firm up a fix for us!
Ryan
Caitlyn ChamplinSenior Captain, B737-800
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DVA043
Senior Captain, MD-11
OLP
Joined on June 10 2001
Event Half Century Club
Online Double Century Club
50 State Club
DVA Twenty-Year Anniversary
Everett 1500 Club
Bi-Millennium Club
Four Million Mile Club
"Col. Panic"
Marietta, GA
2,326 legs, 9,362.8 hours
240 legs,
553.9 hours online
1,984 legs,
8,155.9 hours ACARS
75 legs,
196.3 hours event
2,362 legs, 9,497.7 hours total
91 legs dispatched, 66.4
hours
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Posted onPost created on
March 27 2009 15:51 ET by Luke Kolin
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Seconded. If someone can steer me in the direction of a good A320/330 panel for FSX, I'm all ears.
Cheers!
Luke KolinSenior Captain, MD-11
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
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Posted onPost created on
March 27 2009 16:13 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Thanks for the support guys, and thanks for the information Ryan. I wasn't sure quite how that worked. However I think I'm just going to stick with the current expectations. It'd be great if we could find a fully-realistic FBW freeware panel, but I don't think that would be possible (Unless you and Luke wanted to get together and design one :P)
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 27 2009 16:29 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Oh, in the mean time, there's also a fix out for the purple-line issue that plagues so many of our Buses (The NW A319 and AF A321 for an example). It's for FS9, but if somebody wants to try it in FSX, go ahead. AVSIM: ifdg_a320_paintkit_fix.zip
What it does is create a new 'base model', on to which our textures would be applied, but it would remove the purple lines. For me, having the purple lines fixed would be far less important than getting a new panel, but in this case there's already a fix available, so if anybody wants to try it, go ahead.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 31 2009 19:10 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Has anybody gotten a chance to test the panel I linked to?
And Luke, I'm no expert on technical stuff, but couldn't somebody just go in the panel .cfg and remove out the bit for the ruder restriction?
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5225
Captain, CRJ-200
Joined on November 20 2007
"Nothing said I had to crash"
Florence, CO USA
99 legs, 199.9 hours
16 legs,
43.6 hours online
7 legs,
12.1 hours ACARS
3 legs,
7.3 hours event
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Posted onPost created on
March 31 2009 19:17 ET by Danny Wood
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I tryed but it didint work with my sim.
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
March 31 2009 19:22 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Alright, thanks for trying though :-)
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 02 2009 22:57 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Well, with a running computer again, I'll pick up research over the weekend.
With the upcoming DVA A320 programme, I'd like to see a breakthrough quickly so that this fault doesn't provide a reason not to join the Deltabus.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5225
Captain, CRJ-200
Joined on November 20 2007
"Nothing said I had to crash"
Florence, CO USA
99 legs, 199.9 hours
16 legs,
43.6 hours online
7 legs,
12.1 hours ACARS
3 legs,
7.3 hours event
|
Posted onPost created on
April 02 2009 23:34 ET by Danny Wood
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Np. I don't mind helping any one.
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 03 2009 18:29 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Stay tuned everybody, I'm going to resume testing in about an hour or so. If I find anything, I'll post it here right away. Again, I'll formally take my final result to the senior staff.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 03 2009 20:24 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Blech! That panel is the most aweful thing I've ever used!
Anybody else have other panel suggestions?
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 04 2009 22:19 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Luke, you have mail.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 04 2009 22:32 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Oh, if anybody's still interested in helping, here's what you can do.
Go into the aircraft.cfg and play arround with the =X (with x being a number) things for different things such as maximum bank, etc.
If we can isolate a single number or set of numbers that tells the aircraft not to turn the rudder or how much to turn it, we can erase/change that to allow for happy flying without having to find a new panel.
The FSX A321 panel offers such incredible realism for FBW (almost as much as Wilco!!!) that I'd hate to give it the boot just to fix a rudder problem. In fact, it meets every single thing on my checklist except for the Overspeed Protection and Rudder Problem (of course). If we can get rid of the rudder problem, man we would have a better Airbus installer than any other Virtual Airline in the world.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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DVA5544
Captain, A320
Joined on February 07 2008
"I'm at a 15° chin-up attitude."
Spiez, Bern Schweiz
34 legs, 58.3 hours
24 legs,
34.9 hours ACARS
|
Posted onPost created on
April 05 2009 22:00 ET by Alexander Kolb
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Alright, this cause might be dead, and I might just go buy FS9 and the beta Airsimmer, but I'm going to remain presistant.
As there are no other freeware FSX/FS9 compatible (as in have both compatibility) panels, I'm looking to find any other solution. I have two.
Solution #1. Editing the aircraft.cfg
Solution #2. NEW! vasFMC (see below)
Ok, I explained the editing of the aircraft.cfg, but I'll explain vasFMC.
vasFMC v2 is trying to allow for FBW features added. If they do have realistic FBW features availible in their current v2 beta, we could simply disable the FBW in the aircraft.cfg and let vasFMC take over.
Alexander KolbCaptain, A320
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