Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler - Question about Atlanta Five (ATL5) Westbound Departures...

Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | DVA2006 | Question about Atlanta Five (ATL5) Westbound Departures...

DVA7636
Senior Captain, L-1011-100
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Channelview, TX USA

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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 11:17 ET by Tracy Norris

I read and re-read the SID but still have a question about Westbound departures on the ATL5 SID when taking off to the east...

I was flying "Bessie" (my company 727) and while she's a sweet girl, she doesn't have that new-fangled GPS thingy wink

so no RNAV capability (I'll leave it to the wiseacres to pop in about INS) ANYHOO...

There are no non-RNAV departures out of ATL other than the Atlanta Five and I needed the WEONE transition for my flight to Houston. ATC was not online and there were several inbounds to 9R/8L. I planned my takeoff for 9L. Also, importantly, no ATC was online.

My question is this: What is correct departure procedure for taking off east-bound, then turning back west (in my case a right turn), to avoid conflicts with any east-landing inbounds?

As it was, I took off and upon reaching the middle marker, made a climbing right turn to 8,000 abeam the airport and continued direct WEONE up to FL300 for my short hop (KATL-KIAH).

While executed with masterful precision ( biggrin

), I could see a potential for conflict for those arriving from the West own-nav or those coming in on the LaGrange One or Honie Five STARs.

Again, I read and re-read the SID but couldn't find any definitive procedures for this type of departure. Am I missing something or is everyone else here just "winging it" as well?

Thanks in advance.

Tracy Norris

Senior Captain, L-1011-100

DVA3196
Senior Captain, MD-11
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"pitchpowertrim.com"
Anderson, MO

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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 11:55 ET by Michael Brown

If ATC were online they would have provided you with radar vectors towards WEONE. Since ATC isn't online you could have simply done a right downwind departure. If it was me i would have climbed straight ahead to 3000 or so then simply make a 180 and direct WEONE.

Michael Brown (DVA3196)

DVA3809
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East Petersburg, PA USA

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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 12:10 ET by Garen Evans

Also it helps, when ATC is online, to put a remark in the comments section just to remind them that your aircraft has, "LIMITED RNAV CAPABILITY", or in your case, "NO RNAV CAPABILITY". This has usually resulted in ATC telling me to expect radar vectors WEONE, as Michael noted.

Garen Evans (DVA3809)

Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 12:18 ET by Tracy Norris

Michael & Garen, thanks for the input.

It's as I suspected, a semi-uncontrolled departure (uncontrolled in the sense no ATC is online, other than that it's on a SID). While unlikely at ATL in real life, it is a situation I wanted to bring up due to uncontrolled ops at ATL.

THe climb to 3000 and make a right-downwind departure sounds like a good plan since this should put the aircraft above the 12,000ft transitioning altitudes for those inbound on the STARs (and that's assuming a slow climb).

Garen, funny you mention the lack of RNAV: When I'm flying on VATSIM (event or otherwise), it's painful to hear ATC read me some long RNAV clearance and I have to reply with "unable, type B727, non-RNAV" eek

You can almost hear a pin drop on frequency while ATC (in a much different tone of voice akin to "Oh cr*p! One of THOSE!"). I put the correct equipment code in the flight plan but sometimes they miss it. They'll spend the next 2 or 3 minutes hunting down a non-RNAV SID (sorry, I already did) and then have to coordinate everything with everybody. Being a non-RNAV B727 can be an aggravation to a controller, but hey, at least I'm not in a Wright Flyer requesting it plotting

(Did that once at LAX many years ago. The controller sounded like he wanted to slit his wrists)...

Thanks again. I wanted to get a reality check on this wink

Tracy Norris

Senior Captain, L-1011-100

DVA1690
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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 12:35 ET by Trevor Bair

From my days at ZTL years ago...

One thing to keep in mind is that based on your direction of flight, you'd typically depart from the south runways if your destination is south of ATL and the north runways if you're heading to a destination north of ATL. This rule will generally keep you out of the way of other departing traffic and makes sure that your turn on course is on the appropriate side of the airport as to not create a traffic conflict.

As was mentioned above, ATC would then provide radar vectors to the initial fix and then you'd be on your way. Resultantly, a typical clearance would be something like: "DAL1234, cleared to Houston via the Atlanta five departure *radar vectors* to WEONE/WETWO then as filed...etc. etc."

Trevor Bair

Senior Captain, MD-88

DVA1427
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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 15:24 ET by Lewis Gregory

Definitely insert your lack of RNAV capability into the flight plan comments. OTOH, I can honestly say, I never had a problem with it all the times I flew the 727 on VATSIM (dozens), even without mentioning lack of RNAV. I made sure that in Squawkbox I selected an equipment type that indicated I couldn't do the departures--something like "Simple RNAV" since I was usually running a CIVA INS and that does qualify as RNAV but can't do RNAV departures/arrivals--and double-checked every flightplan I pulled and used to make sure that the departure and arrival selected were not RNAV-only. It made for a fair bit of extra work sometimes if I got a flightplan off, say, Flightaware and had to alter the DP/STAR at unfamiliar airports...lots of time on Airnav spent clicking on PDFs and saying, "nope, that departure doesn't go the right direction, let's try this one..." smile

Lewis Gregory

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DVA3665
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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 15:41 ET by Benton Wilmes

Officially...

You would have been assigned 8R for departure as anyone going out the N or W gates (NOONE, NOTWO, WEONE, and WETWO) is assigned the North runway complex. Those going out the S or E gates obviously would get the Southern runway complex.

The way I remember this is by looking at only the Eastbound guys and the Westbound guys that have to make a U-Turn to get on course. That would be those going to the west during east operations (using the 8's and 9's) or those going east during west operations (using the 26's and 27's). Those guys will ONLY make LEFT turns on the climb out of ATL. So for your flight, you were going west during east operations. When you depart, you should only have to make left turns. If you depart off of 9L, a left turn would take you right through the 8R departures. So when you use 8R, you make a left turn and don't interfere with the departures off the South complex.

The reason that left turns are used is the same reason as a standard traffic pattern is to the left: The PIC (Captain) is on the left said of the aircraft and can fly the pattern "better" (he can see out his window better) than if he had to make right turns.

As for the altitude, departures stay at or below 10k until they are clear of the arrivals (who are kept at or above 11k) and then climbed up to altitude.

Benton Wilmes

Senior Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 15:43 ET by Michael Brown

Inserting these comments shouldn't be necessary as the pilot needs to select the appropriate equipment suffix when filing a flight plan. With that the controller will know what you and your aircraft are capable of. For those who are unsure what equipment suffix's are here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_codes

Michael Brown (DVA3196)

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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 16:28 ET by Noah Bryant

Yes but many VATSIM controllers are students, especially the ones who should be giving you your clearance. As an instructor I would run into a lot of VATSIM student controllers who had no idea what equipment codes were.

Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 16:34 ET by Garen Evans

That's true - I've flew out of Amsterdam and caused quite a stir because they didn't know that /A meant - the Tower almost didn't let me takeoff because he didn't like my VOR-only flight plan.

Garen Evans (DVA3809)

DVA3355
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Denver, CO USA

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Posted onPost created on September 23 2009 21:26 ET by Daniel Hodnik

re equipment codes

as a controller, equipment types are easy. here at denver tracon, RW, we don't use strips so we have no idea what equipment type each plane is. LYMs and GLAs are generally /As, most others can go direct. the worst thing that happens is, "LYM375 cleared direct extan", "Unable direct extan", "my mistake, fly heading 120 joing the GLD transition".

i dont know how other facilities work, but it is a guessing game here, RW.

Daniel Hodnik (DVA3355)

Posted onPost created on September 27 2009 10:37 ET by Tracy Norris

Daniel,

You don't use flight strips in the TRACON anymore? Wow, sounds like technology is getting the better of us. Come to think of it, I visited the ZHU (Houston) Tracon several years back and don't recall seeing flight strips there either. What are your redundancy procedures if power or the computers are lost? I know you are sitting in a dark room so I guess it's lost-comm procedures for all flights involved eh?

Tracy Norris

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DVA4707
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Posted onPost created on September 28 2009 17:21 ET by Tom Rickard

For equipment codes I use this table at http://www.gofir.com/general/rvsm/aircraft_equipment_suffix.htm looks a little nicer then the wikipedia one :).

Tom Rickard

Captain, B747-400

Posted onPost created on September 28 2009 20:56 ET by Daniel Hodnik

Tracy,

strips are required for overflights and satellite departures. we use ACD scopes, also know as arts color displays. as far as i know they are the best option for the tracon environment. the ACDs are quite nice. we get all the information that is necessary from out datablocks ie exit fix.

if we lost power, we would be in a world of hurt - good news is that it is unlikely that we would ever lose power. we have emergency engine driven generators, battery backup. through our voice switch system, we have a main and a standby for each frequency. if neither work, we can use a alternate frequency that is available. else we can use park air or voice switch bypass. data fed to our facility is triple redundant ie enter the building at three different locations. we have 3 sensors aka radar sites that can be used.

Daniel Hodnik (DVA3355)

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