Delta Virtual Airlines
Water Cooler

Daniel Shaw wrote:

In the real world, Captains are line checked annually with a Check Airman riding in the jump seat for 2 legs.

It's just a normal line flight, and the crew is expected to handle the normal challenges.

If something like this were to be implemented here, I would like to see it be of a similar nature. Just have the CP / ACP pick a random flight or two in a pilot's "due month" and review the data. Verify the flight parameters, no aircraft limitations exceeded, no FAR's violated, proper route and flight plan for the leg, etc.

That would be best way to do it as a mirror for the real world, rather than the initial check rides where we are instructed to use a specific route with specific conditions, etc. Plus, just picking a random leg or two for review would minimize the workload on the staff here, not having to track and assign annual line checks to everyone.

Daniel Shaw wrote:

In the real world, Captains are line checked annually with a Check Airman riding in the jump seat for 2 legs.

It's just a normal line flight, and the crew is expected to handle the normal challenges.

If something like this were to be implemented here, I would like to see it be of a similar nature. Just have the CP / ACP pick a random flight or two in a pilot's "due month" and review the data. Verify the flight parameters, no aircraft limitations exceeded, no FAR's violated, proper route and flight plan for the leg, etc.

That would be best way to do it as a mirror for the real world, rather than the initial check rides where we are instructed to use a specific route with specific conditions, etc. Plus, just picking a random leg or two for review would minimize the workload on the staff here, not having to track and assign annual line checks to everyone.

Bob Donovan wrote:

Can ACARS see a detail level that includes the use of taxi lights, proper flap settings, landing lights below 10,000, taxiing on the concrete rather than grass ... ?

Daniel - I think your idea is realistic, and administratively feasible, although it might be fun and challenging for the pilots to have an assignment with parameters to follow. Maybe not hand flying SIDS/STARS - but perhaps a notification that a line check is coming and please make a flight with your program aircraft with flight #123 between these cities.

Then the Chief can check the ACARS for fuel planning, weather planning, procedures etc...
And the pilot can sit anxiously for a few days waiting for the results.


Just thinking out loud again...

Joe Cappelo wrote:



Anyway, my big question is, once you take the checkride....What happens? I

Scott Clarke wrote:

Bob et all: ...or have specific check airman who know a specific payware version of the program aircraft, want to help fellow pilots and are willing to donate their time to do it.

Joe Cappelo wrote:

Anyway, my big question is, once you take the checkride...but if you fail the Flight then what? do you get demoted to a lower stage? ratings taken away? Suspended from flying that AC until you can do another CR and pass it?

Daniel Shaw wrote:

Scott Clarke wrote:

Bob et all: ...or have specific check airman who know a specific payware version of the program aircraft, want to help fellow pilots and are willing to donate their time to do it.

This is how it's done in the real world obviously. It's not the Chief's that do the line checks, each company has a Flight Standards department that is responsible for training, and also maintains a group of "Line Check Airmen" who are assigned a list of pilot's due for checks each month, and their job is to pick 2 legs on a pilot's schedule and show up to ride in the jump seat as a line check.

If this type of program were implemented here, I think the best way to do it would be to add Line Check Airman as a rank, just like Captain, and Senior Captain. Or have it show up under the rank like the "Dispatcher" tag we already have. Have applications for those who want to volunteer and have demonstrated XYZ skills or what not to be promoted to Line Check Airman for a specific type / program, and they just pick legs from a due pilot's logbook and review the data as if they were in the jump seat.

Joe Cappelo wrote:

Anyway, my big question is, once you take the checkride...but if you fail the Flight then what? do you get demoted to a lower stage? ratings taken away? Suspended from flying that AC until you can do another CR and pass it?

In the real world, you get sent back to the "school house" for some simulator training and another "check ride" in the simulator.

Following our protocols already in place, anyone who unsats a "Line Check" could be removed from flying duty until they complete an assigned check ride, like the initial ones with a preset route and parameters. That's basically what happens in the real world.

Timothy Thomas wrote:

I don't like the idea of removing people from duty if they Un-sat a line check. It may be real-world but we are virtual. I don't like it because they are a wide verity of people here with a wide verity of skill level, and how they want to fly may differ from others.

Matt Young wrote:

This would be a logistical nightmare. Do you guys really think an all volunteer wants to go over that many "checkrides" with a fine tooth comb?

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

Has anyone thought about this from a bean-counting point of view? Delta has 19,884 pilots in the database - 1,750 active pilots. Delta would have to schedule 5 flights a day every day for a year to cover these check rides for just their active pilots and that doesn't even account for the check rides they already schedule for equipment or program promotions. Personally, I think it quite presumptuous to expect Delta's staff to have to spend their evenings grading completely unnecessary annual check rides. I know I have much better things to do, and I expect they do too - maybe like flying and enjoying their hobby.

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

Has anyone thought about this from a bean-counting point of view?... I think it quite presumptuous to expect Delta's staff to have to spend their evenings grading completely unnecessary annual check rides. I know I have much better things to do, and I expect they do too - maybe like flying and enjoying their hobby.

Joe Cappelo wrote:


It is not a FULL ON Checkride like we do to get into a new stage or equipment program. Probably max 5 minutes per pilot to grade.

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

check ride, what's the point to any of this? Forgive me for saying so, but this whole idea sounds like a landing rate competition or a pilot-of-the-month contest. In short, who cares? I appreciate Delta's policy of testing its pilots who want to move on to another airframe because the tests and check rides are most informative. You can't help but learn something doing it. I didn't understand this when I first started flying with Delta, but the more exams I took, the more I learned about flying.

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

In all honesty, I've been flying Microsoft's Flight Simulator for many, many years, but I fail to see the reason for having a check ride every year. I'm going to fly with or without it so it makes no difference at all to me. And as far as staying current, I would wager that the majority of Delta's pilots use an inexpensive joystick with a twist-stick rudder, or maybe some rudder pedals - not at all realistic or "real-world." They might even fly some of the PMDG or Aerosoft aircraft, which in my opinion are the only payware aircraft on the market that require using real-world procedures. Of course there are some of us who use a yoke, throttle quadrant, instruments, and panels, but most do not

Bob Donovan wrote:


I completely disagree. If the check rides can be done with the average user setup, then a line check can be done.
Your comment that you don't see the point -
There's several points:

1. Proficiency so people keep some skills to go with the Captain title
2. People like accomplishments and driving towards them. it keeps us interested. This topic started when we agreed how challenging the CR's are.
3. Fun ... As a pilot, an annual line check might be something to look forward to. Especially when globetrotter and other accomplishments are already behind us.

I'm not sure we have to debate "why" any further. It's fun and challenging and I'm sure if we asked everyone, the majority would favor it since it's a great challenge.
I hate to see the "why bother" cloud cast over the topic. It's so easy to answer.

The question is how - and is it worth it.
We can do nothing and everyone can go on doing what they do. That's the easy part.
If something gets changed in a well established org, it's a big deal. It disrupts the harmony. I realize that. I work for one of the biggest companies in the world.
But once it's done, it becomes an institution and another part that makes DVA great.

Feasibility is a long complicated discussion that would take several people who are onboard with the idea locked in a room to work the whole thing out.
I'm not on staff, so I don't know the inner-workings of the system here.
I'm not sure if the software could automatically assign a line check and automatically grade it based on criteria (speed under 10,000 feet, course deviation etc..).

I just know from many years of VA experience, driving towards accomplishments are popular with users.

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

Joe Cappelo wrote:


It is not a FULL ON Checkride like we do to get into a new stage or equipment program. Probably max 5 minutes per pilot to grade.

If it's not going to be a full-on check ride, what's the point to any of this? Forgive me for saying so, but this whole idea sounds like a landing rate competition or a pilot-of-the-month contest. In short, who cares? I appreciate Delta's policy of testing its pilots who want to move on to another airframe because the tests and check rides are most informative. You can't help but learn something doing it. I didn't understand this when I first started flying with Delta, but the more exams I took, the more I learned about flying.

In all honesty, I've been flying Microsoft's Flight Simulator for many, many years, but I fail to see the reason for having a check ride every year. I'm going to fly with or without it so it makes no difference at all to me. And as far as staying current, I would wager that the majority of Delta's pilots use an inexpensive joystick with a twist-stick rudder, or maybe some rudder pedals - not at all realistic or "real-world." They might even fly some of the PMDG or Aerosoft aircraft, which in my opinion are the only payware aircraft on the market that require using real-world procedures. Of course there are some of us who use a yoke, throttle quadrant, instruments, and panels, but most do not.

This discussion reminds me of an old song sung by Crystal Gayle, "Don't Take Me Half The Way." I'm sure showing my age here.... If Delta decides to do something like this, it needs to be done all the way, which will surely count out a whole lot of pilots who fly using 2-D panels, no FMS, and no real-world procedures. The way I feel about this is if we aren't going to go all the way with it, why do it at all? It's all pretty useless otherwise.

Luis Perez wrote:

Good day gentlemen,


I understand people that want challenges, and I applause them. But perhaps there are people here that are like me, that when you mention SID and STARS we start to sweat.

Best regards,

Luis B.

Bob Donovan wrote:



Your comment is a good one and I would envision the line check being easier than a check ride. As I mentioned above, I envision an assigned route (less important) and an audit of the record (more important).

The thrill is the pressure of being watched and audited and it should sharpen us up a little to fly our routes properly (not landing with 80% fuel, flying <250kts under 10,000, flying a valid route (not direct ATL-LAX) and landing within limits).
Something like that.

Bob Donovan wrote:

I understand people that want challenges, and I applause them. But perhaps there are people here that are like me, that when you mention SID and STARS we start to sweat.

Steven Rodriquez wrote:

Bob Donovan wrote:

I understand people that want challenges, and I applause them. But perhaps there are people here that are like me, that when you mention SID and STARS we start to sweat.

If you don't fly STARs and SIDs, what do you fly?

Don Thomas wrote:

There you go VP of Ops has spoken.

I have been quiet on this, more reading and wondering silently. Since Sr. Captain Clarke mentioned me and without going into details chew on this.

Ideas we had would include and not be limited to this;

A SID, A STAR, and enroute hold, a missed approach (flown as perscribed), a second missed, redirected to the alternate. A seprate e-mail with detailed flight and fuel planning.

NOT ONE HICUPP !

A rioll of the dice would determine your city pairs from a list of three.

I wanted it to be the HARDEST CR you would ever have, so when you were tagged as having passed it, you had something to be proud of.

I have no idea what OPS is working on now, that was what we were working on back then.

Jim Pray wrote:

I guess I will weigh in on this. I am not if favor of this. I believe it will have an adverse affect on our members and will either keep people from joining or will have members leave. If I want a checkride to get another rating, that should be my choice and not a mandatory one. We have pilots here that have been hired and are completely satisfied with staying just where they are when they are hired. They are here to just have fun. I know I am odd man out here, but I do not feel this is where we should be going.

Jeremy Hamilton wrote:

it should be optional because some folks might see it as "I got the ratings and I'm done with it."

Shane Vanhoven wrote:

Oh Jeez... This again

Charles Schiaffo wrote:

I am confused by the punishment of a failed check ride. If I fail my check ride am I grounded, forced to take a quiz, or lose my ratings? The idea interests me, but with all things the devil is in the details.