Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler - Going from Level 4 to Level 5 in MSFS

Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations | Going from Level 4 to Level 5 in MSFS

DVA13613
Captain, B737-800

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Posted onPost created on September 04 2022 00:33 ET by Mike Gold

I've been around long enough to make my way up to being an FO in the Level 4 767 and A330 programs, but not captain. With the PMDG 777 hopefully coming later this year for MSFS, and the 744 sometime behind that, I have turned my eye towards wanting to be able to fly them when they get here.

The catch is that I have completely retired P3D and X-Plane 11 and have moved entirely to MSFS, and have no desire to revisit either of the old sims. I imagine there are folks out there who have gotten into flight simulation via MSFS and have no investment in P3D or XP11 and have no desire to spend the money.

For people like them, or for me, is there any way to bridge that gap to being eligible to take the test for a Level 5 rating? I can understand the desire to have that stepping stone setup, but I have hit Captain in the MD88, A320, and 757 programs so I'm not really sure what it is that I need to prove by doing the same again for the 767 before I could move on to something like the 777 when it releases.

Mike Gold

Captain, B737-800

DVA388
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Posted onPost created on September 04 2022 10:13 ET by David Vega

You have to be a Captain to get additional ratings or to switch programs. In your case, become a Captain in the B767, then either request the B777 ratings or switch to the B777-200 program. By becoming Captain in the B767 you show that you have accumulated the experience of flying a stage 4 aircraft before switching to a stage 5 aircraft.

Posted onPost created on September 04 2022 12:42 ET by Mike Gold

David Vega wrote:

You have to be a Captain to get additional ratings or to switch programs. In your case, become a Captain in the B767, then either request the B777 ratings or switch to the B777-200 program. By becoming Captain in the B767 you show that you have accumulated the experience of flying a stage 4 aircraft before switching to a stage 5 aircraft.

Hi David. Thanks for the response, but I’m aware of how the program works. There is no 767 in MSFS to use to become a captain in the 767. There is also no A330 nor a DC-8 nor an L1011. Hence my question: how can people who only use MSFS move from Level 4 to Level 5 when the PMDG 777 and 747 release for MSFS?

Mike Gold

Captain, B737-800

DVA6198
Captain, B737-800

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Posted onPost created on September 04 2022 15:29 ET by Jeremy Jeffreys

Actually, there is a freeware A330 Neo that you could use. and as much as it pains me to say it there is a 767 by Captain Scam that you could use but I would fly the free a330 before I bought that.

Jeremy Jeffreys (DVA6198)

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Posted onPost created on September 04 2022 23:25 ET by Ken Webber

We have several program types in each Stage. Therefore it is up to each individual pilot to choose the program that is available for the simulator they are using. If a pilot chooses to use MSFS and no other simulator, they will have to find a comparable airframe and communicate with the Program Staff to see if that particular airframe is ACARS Check Ride compatible.

My recommendation is to use the Captain Sim 767-400 to obtain the ten flights necessary to test for Captain. There is a mod available that really improves it. You may find the mod on flightsim.to

OR contact the A330 program staff for Stage 4 progression. I *believe* the Headwind A330-900 is a check ride option for MSFS, as it is an option when asking for a check ride. For the 777 you can use the Captain Sim 777-200, but contact the 777 staff to make sure. The same mod I mentioned above works on the 777, as well

We try to accommodate all simulators, but our options are limited to what is available. And we are making provisions for MSFS.

Ken Webber (DVA12746)

Posted onPost created on September 06 2022 22:21 ET by Mike Gold

Ken, thanks very much for the reply.

I appreciate the flexibility provided in allowing people to use those add-ons, but they are very low quality compared to products from developers like PMDG, Fenix, etc. I would not enjoy flying either one of them for the 10 flights required to be allowed to take the test, nor would I consider white knuckling ten flights in low quality freeware to prove anything about my skills. In my specific case, I'm not sure what I could demonstrating by flying the Headwind A330 or Captain Sim 767 for the 8 or so flights remaining that I have not already demonstrated by passing FO checkrides for both the A330 and 767 back when I used XP11, and if someone was starting from scratch I still can't see what use there would be.

So, I would respectfully request the administrative team consider an alternative route to get people from Level 3 to Level 5 in MSFS without having to resort to using low quality aircraft just for the sake of form, only until a good quality add-on is released that plugs one of the existing Level 4 slots.

Mike Gold

Captain, B737-800

Posted onPost created on September 07 2022 19:05 ET by David Vega

Mike, as you said, you know how the program works. There is no alternative route. There's a path for those pilots that prefer MSFS. We understand that some prefer study-level simulations, but even that is subjective. I encourage you to follow the process from 1st Officer to Captain and on to the next level. Each level has more complex aircraft with more challenging check rides. Hope you have fun with all of that as I did.

Posted onPost created on September 11 2022 22:27 ET by Mike Gold

As you say, each level has more complex aircraft with more challenging check rides, and one point of hesitation I have is meeting a more challenging check ride requirement with a shoddier, less full featured tool.

Philosophically, I would also be curious to know, what does the leadership see as being demonstrated doing a more complex check ride in an inferior simulation, like using the CaptainSim 767 to complete a Level 4 captaincy, vs. doing a more complex check ride in a lower category aircraft -- say going from the A320 to the 777 -- than you might have to do to go from a Level 3 like the A320 to a Level 4? Does that make sense? Why not allow someone to take a more stringent check ride to skip a level? At the real Delta, you can get hired off the street directly into the right seat of a 777 if there's a need on that seniority list, or if seniority allows you can certainly go directly from an A320 to a 777 bid.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just trying to understand the goal that is being met with this program, because as we've discussed it here it feels a lot more like something between "everyone else had to do it this way, so so do you" and just generically demonstrating that you're following the rules, vs. a program where you are demonstrating an increasing level of proficiency -- if it was the latter, I feel like you'd value higher quality simulation over just checking a generic category box.

Mike Gold

Captain, B737-800

Posted onPost created on September 14 2022 00:24 ET by Ken Webber

Your question was asked an answered. Follow the process. That literally is all there is to it.

But I'll elaborate a little more. How sophisticated an aircraft is systems-wise IS NOT important, AT ALL. Never has been, never will be. Whether you use Flight Factor, PMDG, or a freeware aircraft....IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Can you demonstrate the ability to handle the aircraft and fly it how it is meant to be flown? Can you navigate? Can you fly SIDs and STARS? Can you do fuel planning? Those are important.

There is a natural progression. Test, Check Ride, First Officer, 10 Flights, Test, Captain and move on to next stage if you wish.

That is the process and it will not change.

Ken Webber (DVA12746)

Posted onPost created on September 15 2022 21:19 ET by Mike Gold

Ken Webber wrote:

How sophisticated an aircraft is systems-wise IS NOT important, AT ALL.... Can you demonstrate the ability to handle the aircraft and fly it how it is meant to be flown? Can you navigate? Can you fly SIDs and STARS? Can you do fuel planning? Those are important.

My point is exactly this. If you want to see me demonstrate navigation, procedures, and planning, I can do that for you in the Fenix A320 or the PMDG 737. If the plane doesn't matter, what else am I demonstrating by doing those things in these other two add-ons? But I see the point is to do what I'm told, so I'll drop it, reinstall X-Plane at some point, and grind out the flights in the FlightFactor.

Candidly, I am disappointed to see what feels like a brick wall when it comes to feedback on the process -- but, like I said, I'll drop it.

Mike Gold

Captain, B737-800

DVA4629
Captain, A350-900

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Posted onPost created on October 17 2022 04:19 ET by Christian Franke

My two cents: I always learnt something flying a new check ride. More than a decade ago, I flew the B767 (Level-D), a couple of months ago, I also did the A330 (Aerosoft). The only one I have dropped so far is the B747. Simple reason, it is not used by Delta. But one day… maybe!

Besides, you will never get into the T7 cockpit by flying a check ride on a B737 in RL. It is a different plane.

Now something maybe more helpful: Don’t you have an older sim you can employ for the check ride only? Get in that FSX or P3D and fly the Level-D. Enjoy that ancient technology. Or fly the FF764 in Xplane11.

Christian Franke

Captain, A350-900

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Posted onPost created on October 17 2022 14:22 ET by Khary Williams

Not to piggy back off this threat but it's always confused me. Would someone help me out with eligibility?

I was previously a Captain in the B747 Stage 5. (Moved to 737 when PMDG became eligible for MSFS).

What would I need to do to get additional ratings in either the A330-900Neo or the B78X?

It's always confused me that I can fly the A330-300 and the B788 but not those other two planes.

Thanks for the help!

Khary Williams

Captain, A350-900

Posted onPost created on October 18 2022 05:08 ET by Christian Franke

From my experience, you either are new to a program (like I switched from the B777 to the A350) or you already obtain the "basic" ratings. In the first scenario you will need to go through all the different steps (FO exam - Check Ride). In the second scenario you need to apply for further equipment ratings and usually just get them granted. That being said, if you have already flown the A330 checkride (including FO exam), you will just get the A339 rating. If you inherited the A333 rating with a another type, you would fly the CR and pass the FO exam to get the A339 (same with the B78x).

example: I inherited the B744 rating but don't have the B748. I would have needed to fly the B744 checkride if I had wanted to fly this particular variant. But, I flew the B777 CR including the FO exam. Hence, I just needed to apply for the B78x rating and got them without further ado.

Regard
Chris

Christian Franke

Captain, A350-900

Posted onPost created on October 19 2022 01:40 ET by Ken Webber

Khary Williams wrote:

Not to piggy back off this threat but it's always confused me. Would someone help me out with eligibility?

I was previously a Captain in the B747 Stage 5. (Moved to 737 when PMDG became eligible for MSFS).

What would I need to do to get additional ratings in either the A330-900Neo or the B78X?

It's always confused me that I can fly the A330-300 and the B788 but not those other two planes.

Thanks for the help!

Khary, you just submit "additional ratings request" for each program and they will be given to you, IF you already possess the basic ratings. I suggest ALL pilots go through the ratings that can be requested to see if there has been new equipment added to a program they have ratings for. We've added the MAX 8, A321NEO...etcetera

Ken Webber (DVA12746)

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