Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler - What happened to landing pie chart?

Delta Virtual Airlines Water Cooler | Airline Operations | What happened to landing pie chart?

DVA10856
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Posted onPost created on February 16 2025 06:31 ET by Bob Getterz

I recently flew a flight and using MSFS 2024 I landed too far from the threshold. I submitted it anyway because the flight report graded it at over 75%. When I checked my optimal landing stats I found that I had dropped from 75.6% to just over 46%. I have 1500 flight and 1309 optimal landings. How does that equate to 46%? Dangerous landing went from less that 4% to over 29%. Help please.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

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Posted onPost created on February 16 2025 07:06 ET by Bruno Israel

Hello Bob, It looks like there’s a bit of a misconception here. The pie chart you’re referring to isn’t about landing performance specifically, but rather Flight Analysis.

Your overall flight is assessed based on multiple criteria, such as weight, runway usage, SOP adherence, and more. These factors are evaluated even before departure and contribute to your final flight grade, which can be categorized as DANGEROUS, ACCEPTABLE, or OPTIMAL.

While it’s true that a bad landing can negatively impact your flight rating, it’s just one of many factors. For example, if you complete a smooth, uneventful flight that would normally be rated as OPTIMAL, but execute a very long landing, your flight may end up being classified as DANGEROUS due to the low landing score.

On the other hand, if you depart overweight—a clearly dangerous condition—your flight will be rated as DANGEROUS, even if you execute a perfect 100% landing.

To clarify, landing analysis and overall flight evaluation are separate processes, but as mentioned above, landing performance can impact your global flight rating.

Finally, on your statistics page, you’ll find four great visual graphs created by IT:

TOP LEFT – Flight Rating (DANGEROUS, ACCEPTABLE, OPTIMAL)
TOP RIGHT – Aircraft Types Breakdown
BOTTOM LEFT – Landing Data Graph (Touchdown Rate / Quantity)
BOTTOM RIGHT – Landing Analysis (Touchdown Rate / Runway Usage)

Hope this clears things up! Let me know if you have any questions.

Bruno Israel (DVA6739)

Posted onPost created on February 16 2025 07:36 ET by Bob Getterz

Okay. Thanks for that info. I will submit my resignation after enjoying flying for DVA for almost 13 years. I didn't realize that flights were going to be evaluated so seriously. I will turn 82 in two months, so I had a good ride I guess.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 16 2025 08:57 ET by Bruno Israel

You know that this information is just one piece of the bigger picture, right? You can still fly as you have for the past 13 years—nothing in the rules has changed that would suddenly invalidate your flights for no reason. It would be a real shame to lose someone over something so minor.

Bruno Israel (DVA6739)

Posted onPost created on February 16 2025 10:24 ET by Bob Getterz

I can't tell over the years how many flights I would complete and my rate of descent or distance from the threshold wouldn't qualify for a optimal landing that I would not submit for approval because it would affect my rating. Then after my last flight using FSFS 2024 and no ATC, I knew my floating would affect my score, but I never thought so drastically. Going from 76% optimal to 46% in one flight was eye opening. That and my dangerous flights went from less that 5% to over 29% Kind of a kick in butt for me.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 18 2025 07:41 ET by Bob Getterz

Using the graph on the bottom which shows the number of flight legs by date and landing ratings I counted the number of dangerous landing at 32 landing. Number of flight flown is 1500 over that period of time. That equal a 2.13% dangerous landings over the entire recorded date. I don't know what I am missing. Please explain how the pie chart comes up with 29% dangerous.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 18 2025 15:19 ET by Bruno Israel

Hi Bob, The pie chart represents your Flight Rating, while the graph you mentioned pertains Flight rating vs landing analysis.

During a flight, you might exceed 250 knots below 10,000 feet, depart overweight, or enter a restricted area. These "violations," so to speak, can be categorized as dangerous.

For example, let's say you execute a perfect landing (100%), which would be rated as OPTIMAL. However, if you departed above your Maximum Takeoff Weight, your flight would still be marked as DANGEROUS, since you violated a hard limit.

That said, this does not mean your flight will be rejected. Speaking as a real-world pilot, I approach my Flight Sim sessions differently from real-life operations. To me, these sessions are a way to relax and enjoy flying. While I aim to fly correctly, I don't stress over minor infractions like landing slightly overweight or flying into a restricted area. As a result, some of my flights are marked as DANGEROUS, but I don’t see it as a big deal—what matters most is having fun.

For reference, I checked my own data and found 179 flights marked as DANGEROUS due to various flight analysis criteria. However, I only pay attention to landings categorized as "Damaging"—in my case, there are nine, and I can recall exactly what happened in most of them.

Ultimately, this data is quite insightful. You can use it to improve your skills or simply disregard it if you prefer. According to the DVA Pilots Manual, the criteria for flight rejection fall into a separate category altogether.

Bruno Israel (DVA6739)

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Posted onPost created on February 19 2025 12:09 ET by Steven Jones

I am with Bob, something has changed, Bruno you have given a good explanation on how the pie chart works presently. But it did not work that way before, something has changed, as I also noticed that my percentages between dangerous, acceptable and optimal suddenly had large changes.

Steven Jones

Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on February 19 2025 12:28 ET by Steven Jones

I should also say I am with Bruno, Bob if you like flight simming, then keep on doing it and keep flying with Delta virtual and fly to the standards you set for yourself in order to keep things fun, thats what its all about

Steven Jones

Captain, B777-200

Posted onPost created on February 19 2025 12:30 ET by Bob Getterz

Here is what I found. The old pie chart was a reflection of your landings only. Now DVA has gone back to the beginning of your career and included found issues with each flight that are deemed dangerous, not just landings. Including things like air space violations, rate of descent or climb etc. Go to your logbook and you will see the new red dangerous issues that were not noted until recently. I am the pilot of the aircraft, not the flight planner etc. I use the flight planner included in Simbrief or the sim I am using. Some of the values are not the actions of the pilot, but the actions of the aircraft he or she is flying. Example of that is PMDG 737 cannot be slowed down on descent. You can cut the throttles to idle and at the correct rate of descent the only way to slow it is to throw out some flaps, spoilers or even landing gear as suggested on some forums regarding this issue.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 19 2025 14:44 ET by Bruno Israel

I guess the best approach to it then, would be talking to Luke. As he is the only one that would know what changed.

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Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 08:24 ET by Khary Williams

Yeah I noticed the changes as well. I was 52% in Optimal and less than 20% in dangerous. Now I'm 37% Dangerous and that's the bulk of my pie chart. It doesn't make for a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it was disconcerting to see such a drastic change and feel like "darn, I'm really that bad all of the sudden?" lol.

Khary Williams

Captain, A350-900

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 09:18 ET by Bob Getterz

I was a beta tester for REX for around 9 years. Around 2015 or so, a private developer came to them with a program he called "ATTITUDE" It would basically monitor your flight from startup to shutdown. If you exceeded the taxi speed, stopped too suddenly at the gate and many other parameters during the entire flight it would lower your overall score for the flight. It sold some copies in the beginning but sales dropped off to almost nothing. Simmers didn't like to see or have their flights picked apart to that extent. The result was that REX dropped the application and didn't offer support for the product but did offer the buyer to contact the developer for and questions etc. I feel this new AI experience that DVA is using is very comparable to what that product was. I personally don't like the AI that determines your overall score. I really enjoyed adhering to the basics of my flight and most important was my landings. After all, it is a hobby to me and has been since 1983 when Bruce Artwick came out with one of the first flight simulator programs.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 09:59 ET by Steven Jones

I hear you Bob, while I strive to fly by the rules, having hard settings that determine your score can lead to issues. I have noticed that I got flagged for excessive taxi speed on a couple of my flights, reality was I was taking off and it did not detect I was on the runway. And the 250 knot limit for under 10,000 that is a real bug for me, how many times it has gone off because I have gone 251 knots for a few seconds etc.. To try and avoid it I set my speed at 235 or 240 when below 10,000 instead of 250, which is not exactly realistic to what you would do in the real world.

Steven Jones

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Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 10:27 ET by Thomas Weber

The 250 kts below 10,000 ft is definitely a tricky one. While the regulations (FAR 91.117(a)) state you must stay at or below 250 kts, there isn’t an autopilot (or pilot) in the world that can hold a speed perfectly (from an engineering perspective, well tuned control loops inherently have some dead band to prevent over corrections/chasing). Real world operational procedures are to target 250 kts and accept you might go slightly over momentarily; ATC isn’t going to yell at you or give you a number to call. Additionally, heavy aircraft often have clean speeds above 250 kts; no real world operator is going to drag the flaps up to 10,000 ft to stay at or below 250 kts (legally, they exceed the speed legally by the exception in FAR 91.117(d)).

The hard part for us virtual pilots is how to implement some grading rubric that incorporates these nuances…

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 10:47 ET by Thomas Weber

If every aircraft in the sim reported AP Target Speed and Minimum Clean Speed, it would be much easier, but I suspect that isn’t the case…

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 11:02 ET by Bruno Israel

Please believe me when I say that I genuinely share the same frustration. Besides actively assisting with DVA management, I’m still a pilot and a simmer. However, as I mentioned, only Luke can shed light on what changed and why it had such an impact on the Pie.

Regarding the 250 Kts limit, I believe a threshold of +/- 5 Kts would be ideal in most cases.

In any case I recommend that a Help Desk ticket to be open on those matters/suggestions.

Bruno Israel (DVA6739)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 11:06 ET by Bob Getterz

Well, going back and checking my flights through the 13 years I have been flying for DVA, most of my dangerous or red mistakes are breaking the 250 kt rule or taxi speeds. I have no idea where the 250 kts comes from. I set my speed on ascent to 240 knots and on descent to 230 kts below 10k. It's impossible to control taxi speed when you have a wind either from behind or into your taxi direction. The sim will add or subtract from your actual taxi speed.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 11:09 ET by Bob Getterz

Can't you ask Luke to read the discussion in this thread?

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 11:41 ET by Thomas Weber

I have seen instances where the altitude reported by ACARS is lower than what the aircraft is reporting in the sim. This has led to my getting dinged for being >250 kts below 10,000 ft erroneously.

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 19:01 ET by Bruno Israel

Yes, sure that I can Bob. But if you want to have things adjusted its pretty much standard to open a Help Desk Ticket, that could be converted into a development issue. Anyway, it's up to you. Cheers

Bruno Israel (DVA6739)

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Posted onPost created on February 20 2025 19:27 ET by Luke Kolin

Bob Getterz wrote:

Can't you ask Luke to read the discussion in this thread?

I have been travelling since Saturday and just flew back today. I am happy to review but please give me a day or so to do so.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 21 2025 07:25 ET by Bob Getterz

Thomas Weber wrote:

I have seen instances where the altitude reported by ACARS is lower than what the aircraft is reporting in the sim. This has led to my getting dinged for being >250 kts below 10,000 ft erroneously.

True. I flew a flight yesterday and there were times when it would be as much as 1500 feet compared to my altimeter. I asked that question awhile back and was told it was probably taking into account sea level.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 21 2025 08:40 ET by Luke Kolin

Show me the actual flight. Position (lat/lon/alt) reporting has had no reported issues in literally decades, because there's not much that can go wrong there. The only area I can think of where you would have a significant altitude discrepancy is with unusually high or low barometric pressure and the altimeter is still set to 29.92. But if there is another case, I'm happy to look at it.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 21 2025 10:42 ET by Thomas Weber

Take a look at this flight: https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b8131

During the climb, there are 4 datapoints where the aircraft is clearly pitching down to accelerate to 300+ kts, but ACARS is still showing <10,000 ft. The aircraft is following the VNAV profile in the FMC, so it clearly thinks it’s above 10,000 ft (I know that sim aircraft aren’t perfect, but I trust PMDG has this working pretty reliably). I’m pretty confident the altimeter was set right on departure, but there is always a chance that MSFS “real world weather” is doing something goofy…?

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 21 2025 12:19 ET by Thomas Weber

Your point about altimeter setting raises another question: what about airports/countries with transition altitudes / levels below 10,000 ft? 1 inHg is approximately 1,000 ft of difference in altimeter reading, so this would definitely have an impact.

I’d hate to make more work for Luke or the Operations team coming up with all of the permutations. Perhaps there is an easy(?) solution of adding some tolerance around 250 kts (to account for pilot/autopilot control loops) and around 10,000 ft (to account for altimeter settings / local transition altitude) before flagging a “deviation” in the flight report. This obviously wouldn’t help the cases where heavy aircraft have clean speeds above (sometimes considerably) 250 kts.

I’m very thankful we have the tools we have to review our flight performance; it helps me become a more accurate (virtual) pilot as I try to emulate real world procedures. I also feel the frustration of being called out when I believe I am doing everything “by the book”.

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 15:09 ET by Bob Getterz

The taxi speed issue I found the answer to that. If you are taxing into the wind say a 20 knot wind, the taxi speed will increase from 20 to 40 knots. Perhaps eliminate taxi speed and adjusting the 250 knot red flag.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 18:09 ET by Thomas Weber

Taxi speed should be based on ground speed, no? In other words, it should be unaffected by wind…

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 18:35 ET by Bob Getterz

Yes it should be. Give it try and you can see that for whatever reason the wind velocity is added to your ground speed. I use Shift-Z to get the taxi speed.

Bob Getterz (DVA10856)

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 19:33 ET by Luke Kolin

Bob Getterz wrote:

The taxi speed issue I found the answer to that. If you are taxing into the wind say a 20 knot wind, the taxi speed will increase from 20 to 40 knots. Perhaps eliminate taxi speed and adjusting the 250 knot red flag.

Taxi speed warning is based on ground speed, not indicated air speed.

Cheers

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Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 19:45 ET by Paul Barnhill

Luke -- Can I add something here for you to take a look at when you can?

I've noticed while approving flights that a lot of piston prop liners get an erroneous engine out flag when the throttles are pulled back to idle, particularly on the CV-240. There are RPMs, but it seems with the really low fuel rate, ACARS is seeing that as an engine out. Obviously doesn't get a flight rejected, but for folks concerned that the flight gets marked dangerous, it will. Also, there's a weird gear up glitch with the Felis TU-154. It has a middle gear lever position that is supposed to be used once the gear is extended or retracted, but ACARS reads that as gear-up. So, if you're on the ground and have it set to the middle spot, you get a lot of flags. If you want to take a look where this happened for me, here's one. https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b80e6 Not a huge deal/doesn't personally bother me, but figured I'd mention since this is an active thread.

As always, thanks for the work you put in! ACARS definitely gets it right a lot more often than not.

Paul Barnhill

Assistant Chief Pilot, A350-900

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 19:53 ET by Luke Kolin

Paul Barnhill wrote:

I've noticed while approving flights that a lot of piston prop liners get an erroneous engine out flag when the throttles are pulled back to idle, particularly on the CV-240. There are RPMs, but it seems with the really low fuel rate, ACARS is seeing that as an engine out.

Engine Out is actually detected based on N1/N2 values, but piston engines have different values in those fields and it wouldn't surprise me if those are incorrect. I can certainly examine that - is there a PIREP I need to look at as an example?

Paul Barnhill wrote:

Also, there's a weird gear up glitch with the Felis TU-154. It has a middle gear lever position that is supposed to be used once the gear is extended or retracted, but ACARS reads that as gear-up. So, if you're on the ground and have it set to the middle spot, you get a lot of flags. If you want to take a look where this happened for me, here's one. https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b80e6 Not a huge deal/doesn't personally bother me, but figured I'd mention since this is an active thread.

I don't have that aircraft. Is it payware? Can someone tell me what dataref it uses for the third gear lever position?

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 20:15 ET by Paul Barnhill

Thanks for the response Luke. I can't figure out how to search for reports I already approved, but I'll make a note and send you the next one I get. This was specifically several CV-240 legs I approved today.

The Felis Tu-154 is weird -- Used to be payware and became freeware for XP-11. It's maintained kind of like the Zibo 737 now and I think not by the original developer anymore. If there's some place I can check the dataref on it for you, let me know. I get it's a really niche aircraft for here (but it's really complex and fun).

EDIT: Here's one that just came through. And if you check Eric's logbook, he has a lot of recent CV-240 flights that have had the engine out flag when he starts descending. https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b9c00

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Posted onPost created on February 22 2025 21:30 ET by Jeremy Jeffreys

I flew into KSPS tonight, I received a Dangerous because of Airspace with no other issues. It is Shepard Airforce Base, I flew the published RNAV 15R approach, this is just very disheartening when you fly everything the way it is supposed to be flown and get dinged for 100+ Airspace Violations that are not in my control. My flight is here https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b9c2e

Luke I know it is not in your control and we appreciate you bringing this up the chain.

Thanks,

Jeremy Jeffreys (DVA6198)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 09:17 ET by Luke Kolin

Thomas Weber wrote:

During the climb, there are 4 datapoints where the aircraft is clearly pitching down to accelerate to 300+ kts, but ACARS is still showing <10,000 ft. The aircraft is following the VNAV profile in the FMC, so it clearly thinks it’s above 10,000 ft (I know that sim aircraft aren’t perfect, but I trust PMDG has this working pretty reliably). I’m pretty confident the altimeter was set right on departure, but there is always a chance that MSFS “real world weather” is doing something goofy…?

I'm not confident that the altimeter was set correctly. The delta between the pressure there and ISA is around 500 feet, which is very close to the delta between where the plane pitched down and started accelerating. If the altimeter is set correctly and one is close to the airport, there should be no delta between the altimeter reported altitude and the true altitude.

I report the altitude SimConnect (via FSUIPC) gives me. My interpretation is that the altimeter was set incorrectly, which broadly matches the reported behavior.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 11:27 ET by Thomas Weber

I know the altimeter was set correctly on the ground, or there would be quite a disagreement between field elevation and altitude on the PFD. I use real world weather and the “set altimeter” keybind, so everything should have matched at takeoff.

Looking at the approach chart for RW30L (TDZE 823), I would expect that the datapoint there (showing 380 ft AGL) to read 1,203 ft, and it reported 1,209 ft (pretty close).

The only thing I can think is that MSFS injected new weather with a largely different altimeter setting?

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 16:10 ET by Luke Kolin

Thomas Weber wrote:

I know the altimeter was set correctly on the ground, or there would be quite a disagreement between field elevation and altitude on the PFD. I use real world weather and the “set altimeter” keybind, so everything should have matched at takeoff.

But the flight you sent me was not flown by you.

Looking at the approach chart for RW30L (TDZE 823), I would expect that the datapoint there (showing 380 ft AGL) to read 1,203 ft, and it reported 1,209 ft (pretty close).

Why wouldn't it? I am reporting actual altitude, not the altimeter value.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 16:25 ET by Thomas Weber

Are we talking about two different flights? This is the one from my logbook: https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b8131

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 16:29 ET by Thomas Weber

Luke Kolin wrote:

Why wouldn't it? I am reporting actual altitude, not the altimeter value.

Cheers

I must have misunderstood your previous post. I thought you were saying that you also had the altimeter and altimeter setting data.

I am completely willing to blame MSFS weather for introducing a rapid change in altimeter setting that meant my setting was off by ~0.5 inch… it’s been known to do weird weather things before!

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 16:49 ET by Thomas Weber

Also, does the cabin announcement play when ACARS thinks it's at 10,000 ft exactly?

While climbing out during my flight today, the announcement started when the altimeter was ~9,600 ft. The takeoff altimeter setting was 29.91 inHg (set multiple times using the assigned hotkey). When the announcement played, I immediately hit the hotkey again, which updated the altimeter to 29.89 inHg (which increased the altitude ~20 ft, but still well below 10,000).

Thomas Weber (DVA10286)

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 22:03 ET by Luke Kolin

Thomas Weber wrote:

Are we talking about two different flights? This is the one from my logbook: https://www.deltava.org/pirep.do?id=0x1b8131

My mistake. I was looking at the approver. I still do suspect the altimeter was incorrect.

Thomas Weber wrote:

Also, does the cabin announcement play when ACARS thinks it's at 10,000 ft exactly?

Not exactly. It requires altitude to be >10,000 ft, >6,000 above ground level and a vertical speed of >500fpm.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

Posted onPost created on February 23 2025 22:11 ET by Luke Kolin

Bob Getterz wrote:

Here is what I found. The old pie chart was a reflection of your landings only. Now DVA has gone back to the beginning of your career and included found issues with each flight that are deemed dangerous, not just landings. Including things like air space violations, rate of descent or climb etc. Go to your logbook and you will see the new red dangerous issues that were not noted until recently.

To be clear, this is not the case. To calculate a comprehensive flight score is not fast or cheap, computationally speaking (I need to load all of the positions) and so I don't have anywhere where I do this calculation across an entire logbook. Some of you fly a lot! Because I'm still in the process of fine-tuning it I don't even persist it to the database, allowing me to change the criteria as Ops provides feedback. At some point I will write the data but that's not a quick exercise so I am in no rush.

The challenge with the stats page is that we're tracking two overall things - a flight score and a landing score - and the page isn't explicit about what the graphs are showing. I've made changes to make things more consistent. Hopefully the page gives you a better picture of your skills appreciating over time. That is the goal - to give you a picture of what you're doing, what you're doing well and where you can improve.

Cheers

Luke Kolin

Senior Captain, MD-11

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